Why I bought a Toyota Prius
Nathan Wicks emailed me and asked
I would like to request a blog-post entitled "Why I Own a Prius".
I realize it has nothing to do with frisbee, but still, it would be
interesting (and maybe you could piss off some environmentalists, or SUV
drivers, or both).
I just read an interesting take on hybrids at http://www.cnet.com/4520-6033_1-6224487-1.html?tag=promobatn Basically, the woman talks about why she thinks hybrids are not making the inroads they might otherwise be doing, that the hybrid basically still appeals to the geek-shic, etc. And just as a prelude to the discussion, this was also my first new car EVER.
Prior to buying this car, I owned 3 used VW Jettas since 1989 ('84, '86, and '90), the first 2 of which were totalled, and the last one which I traded in for the Prius after 11 years of ownership. So until I bought the Prius, I had never sold or traded in a car that retained ANY value whatsoever, basically driving them until they dropped.
Now I assume that Wicks asked me that question because it was probably the last thing he would have expected from me, but I'm not really sure. I think he probably lumps me in the Republican camp with Parinella, but more on that later. Just for additional background,last summer I had my parents bring up my Honda Aero50 scooter which I had back in high school (!) and which was lying fallow in my parents garage. I wanted to use it for multiple reasons. During the spring, summer, and fall, I basically use it for most errands around Arlington, Cambridge, and Lexington, including going to practice when it is not raining. It gets probably 70-80 miles per gallon, and it was saving wear and tear on the other cars. And it is like windsurfing compared to sailing. If you don't get the reference, too bad.
Come January of this year, the '90 Jetta was falling apart. The heat didn't work, the battery was completely dead. I got around using a portable battery to jump my car when necessary and tried to avoid carrying the kids. The only reason we had waited this long was that the Jetta got used maybe once every couple of weeks ('96 Mercury Sable wagon was option 1, and as you can see, we aren't exactly living and driving large) My wife and I were finally discussing what kind of car we were going to get. I had assumed for the last few years that I would be replacing the Jetta with yet another in a long line of used cars. We still had a '96 Mercury Sable Wagon, which was the big car for getting the family around (4 yr old twins). We checked out used Subaru's, the new Mazda6 wagon (definitely has some power), before I started gravitating back to sedans. I'm not exactly sure where or when the transition occurred, but I started looking at new cars. My wife backed out of the process because of my indecision. I checked out the Toyota Corolla and Camry and was leaning towards the Corolla, but was still waffling in general. I inquired about the Prius and discovered that they had a 4-6 month wait list. All this research, looking at prices, mileage, etc, and realizing how long I was going to have whatever car I purchased, especially if new, made me gravitate towards the Prius. $2/gallon gas didn't hurt.
To make the Jetta last the 6 months to get a new Prius, I was going to have to spend at least $600 on repairs in the interim, which was going to be throw away money. So one Friday I was getting ready to put a $500 refundable deposit for a Prius while I still was making up my mind when I got a call from dealer that asked me if I was still looking for a Prius (I had emailed a bunch of dealers through the Internet). I said yes, got to their dealership an hour later, did a test drive (to make sure it was OK, I had already test-driven one), and then drove out off the lot 2 hours later in a new car, leaving them my beater Jetta for the incredible trade-in value of $100. (I would almost have been willing to PAY them to take it off my hands, considering the trade-in on a WORKING Jetta of that vintage was $370, not including all the problems it had). After the *$&(#*@&$ taxes and other miscellany, I wrote a check for $26000 and voila, I was the proud owner of a new Prius. Basically, the dealer forced my hand, because I'm not sure what I would have eventually have decided if I had really had to wait for 6 months to get the car, especially if something a little more drastic had happened to the Jetta. I might eventually have gone for the Corolla for probably $7G less and an EPA rating of ~31-40 mpg.
Long before I bought the Prius I had mentioned numerous times to friends that I wished gas was as expensive here as it was in Europe (~$5/gallon) because that would provide the proper incentives for customers to push carmakers to build more efficient cars (because people wouldn't buy SUVs unless they REALLY needed them), promote better and more useful public transportation, etc. I have always been a SUV hater.
On a more political bent, I am a registered independent and have tried vote based on the issues and candidates (and supporting divided government!). I probably would default to Democrats if I knew nothing about the candidates. However, the current administration has done more to rollback environmental protections than any administration in history. Also, although Republican Jim might not explicitly admit it, I'm sure that even he cringes at the environmental excesses of the Bushies. I realize that one person can't make a difference (with respect to the environmental impact of the my car), but there was definitely an environmental statement to my purchase of the Prius. While padding the pockets of Toyota (who remarkably has not taken more advantage of the demand), who deserves to be rewarded for predicting the desires of the customer as opposed to the Detroit carmakers who were focussed on near-term profitis on the high margin SUVS, I am also trying to add whatever little bit I can to the hybrid demand and incent Toyota and others to continue to develop high mileage vehicles.
As for reactions to the article I attached at the beginning, I agree with much of what she says as far as hybrid penetration. As for the styling and acceleration, hey, if you need 0-60 in under 6 seconds, then this isn't your car, but few cars are, and really, who needs to drive like that. Granted, that is a function of my age and life status at this point, because I used to drive like that a little, but grow up. I'm still very agressive when necessary, but it doesn't seem as necessary these days. Also, the Prius acceleration is great, when I need it. If you floor it, the electric motor kicks in also and has a bunch of torque, so I can beat most cars off the line. The mileage goes in the tank, but just pointing out that you have it when you need it.
And now for my reactions on the car.
* The Prius is a GREAT car. It is classified as a midsize sedan, and it definitely is. It has more room in the back for the twin car seats than the Sable Wagon. We have had no problems packing enough into the car for a wintry 5-day weekend (more and bigger clothes) for the 4 of us.
* I am not getting the 60/51 mpg that the EPA predicts, but then again, I don't think ANYBODY gets the EPA ratings. It is based on idealized conditions that are not real-world applicable. That said, the Prius gets better mileage at higher temperatures because of the following caveat: it is designed to minimize emissions, NOT maximize mileage. What this means is that the first thing it does on startup is to get the catalytic conversion up to the most efficient temperature (which is very hot). So from a cold start, the best running condition takes about 15 minutes to reach, and longer in the winter. And of course it takes more gas to keep it there in the winter. The high mileage is just a side benefit of the whole system. Another issue is that my house is in the middle of a very long hill. So to get to the places I want to go, I need to go up a long, steep hill or get home by coming up a long hill, which kills the mileage. I get some of it back coming home, but definitely NOT an even swap. I have been tracking the mileage in a spreadsheet, and lifetime we averaging 40mpg, which is probably a 65/35 mix of city and highway driving. However, the last two tanks have been 54 and 40, as the weather has been getting warmer. I would expect to average somewhere around 45 to 50 during the summer months.
* The display is very cool, giving you an instant read on your current mileage, whether you are using the battery, engine, recharging the battery, etc. Most of the car functionality is controlled from the touch-screen, including climate, radio, etc.
* I have modified my driving habits to maximize mileage, including not accelerating quite as much out of the box and various other little tweaks which do not affect how much time it takes me to get somewhere, and would help on all cars, but make that much more of a difference with the Prius.
I would like to request a blog-post entitled "Why I Own a Prius".
I realize it has nothing to do with frisbee, but still, it would be
interesting (and maybe you could piss off some environmentalists, or SUV
drivers, or both).
I just read an interesting take on hybrids at http://www.cnet.com/4520-6033_1-6224487-1.html?tag=promobatn Basically, the woman talks about why she thinks hybrids are not making the inroads they might otherwise be doing, that the hybrid basically still appeals to the geek-shic, etc. And just as a prelude to the discussion, this was also my first new car EVER.
Prior to buying this car, I owned 3 used VW Jettas since 1989 ('84, '86, and '90), the first 2 of which were totalled, and the last one which I traded in for the Prius after 11 years of ownership. So until I bought the Prius, I had never sold or traded in a car that retained ANY value whatsoever, basically driving them until they dropped.
Now I assume that Wicks asked me that question because it was probably the last thing he would have expected from me, but I'm not really sure. I think he probably lumps me in the Republican camp with Parinella, but more on that later. Just for additional background,last summer I had my parents bring up my Honda Aero50 scooter which I had back in high school (!) and which was lying fallow in my parents garage. I wanted to use it for multiple reasons. During the spring, summer, and fall, I basically use it for most errands around Arlington, Cambridge, and Lexington, including going to practice when it is not raining. It gets probably 70-80 miles per gallon, and it was saving wear and tear on the other cars. And it is like windsurfing compared to sailing. If you don't get the reference, too bad.
Come January of this year, the '90 Jetta was falling apart. The heat didn't work, the battery was completely dead. I got around using a portable battery to jump my car when necessary and tried to avoid carrying the kids. The only reason we had waited this long was that the Jetta got used maybe once every couple of weeks ('96 Mercury Sable wagon was option 1, and as you can see, we aren't exactly living and driving large) My wife and I were finally discussing what kind of car we were going to get. I had assumed for the last few years that I would be replacing the Jetta with yet another in a long line of used cars. We still had a '96 Mercury Sable Wagon, which was the big car for getting the family around (4 yr old twins). We checked out used Subaru's, the new Mazda6 wagon (definitely has some power), before I started gravitating back to sedans. I'm not exactly sure where or when the transition occurred, but I started looking at new cars. My wife backed out of the process because of my indecision. I checked out the Toyota Corolla and Camry and was leaning towards the Corolla, but was still waffling in general. I inquired about the Prius and discovered that they had a 4-6 month wait list. All this research, looking at prices, mileage, etc, and realizing how long I was going to have whatever car I purchased, especially if new, made me gravitate towards the Prius. $2/gallon gas didn't hurt.
To make the Jetta last the 6 months to get a new Prius, I was going to have to spend at least $600 on repairs in the interim, which was going to be throw away money. So one Friday I was getting ready to put a $500 refundable deposit for a Prius while I still was making up my mind when I got a call from dealer that asked me if I was still looking for a Prius (I had emailed a bunch of dealers through the Internet). I said yes, got to their dealership an hour later, did a test drive (to make sure it was OK, I had already test-driven one), and then drove out off the lot 2 hours later in a new car, leaving them my beater Jetta for the incredible trade-in value of $100. (I would almost have been willing to PAY them to take it off my hands, considering the trade-in on a WORKING Jetta of that vintage was $370, not including all the problems it had). After the *$&(#*@&$ taxes and other miscellany, I wrote a check for $26000 and voila, I was the proud owner of a new Prius. Basically, the dealer forced my hand, because I'm not sure what I would have eventually have decided if I had really had to wait for 6 months to get the car, especially if something a little more drastic had happened to the Jetta. I might eventually have gone for the Corolla for probably $7G less and an EPA rating of ~31-40 mpg.
Long before I bought the Prius I had mentioned numerous times to friends that I wished gas was as expensive here as it was in Europe (~$5/gallon) because that would provide the proper incentives for customers to push carmakers to build more efficient cars (because people wouldn't buy SUVs unless they REALLY needed them), promote better and more useful public transportation, etc. I have always been a SUV hater.
On a more political bent, I am a registered independent and have tried vote based on the issues and candidates (and supporting divided government!). I probably would default to Democrats if I knew nothing about the candidates. However, the current administration has done more to rollback environmental protections than any administration in history. Also, although Republican Jim might not explicitly admit it, I'm sure that even he cringes at the environmental excesses of the Bushies. I realize that one person can't make a difference (with respect to the environmental impact of the my car), but there was definitely an environmental statement to my purchase of the Prius. While padding the pockets of Toyota (who remarkably has not taken more advantage of the demand), who deserves to be rewarded for predicting the desires of the customer as opposed to the Detroit carmakers who were focussed on near-term profitis on the high margin SUVS, I am also trying to add whatever little bit I can to the hybrid demand and incent Toyota and others to continue to develop high mileage vehicles.
As for reactions to the article I attached at the beginning, I agree with much of what she says as far as hybrid penetration. As for the styling and acceleration, hey, if you need 0-60 in under 6 seconds, then this isn't your car, but few cars are, and really, who needs to drive like that. Granted, that is a function of my age and life status at this point, because I used to drive like that a little, but grow up. I'm still very agressive when necessary, but it doesn't seem as necessary these days. Also, the Prius acceleration is great, when I need it. If you floor it, the electric motor kicks in also and has a bunch of torque, so I can beat most cars off the line. The mileage goes in the tank, but just pointing out that you have it when you need it.
And now for my reactions on the car.
* The Prius is a GREAT car. It is classified as a midsize sedan, and it definitely is. It has more room in the back for the twin car seats than the Sable Wagon. We have had no problems packing enough into the car for a wintry 5-day weekend (more and bigger clothes) for the 4 of us.
* I am not getting the 60/51 mpg that the EPA predicts, but then again, I don't think ANYBODY gets the EPA ratings. It is based on idealized conditions that are not real-world applicable. That said, the Prius gets better mileage at higher temperatures because of the following caveat: it is designed to minimize emissions, NOT maximize mileage. What this means is that the first thing it does on startup is to get the catalytic conversion up to the most efficient temperature (which is very hot). So from a cold start, the best running condition takes about 15 minutes to reach, and longer in the winter. And of course it takes more gas to keep it there in the winter. The high mileage is just a side benefit of the whole system. Another issue is that my house is in the middle of a very long hill. So to get to the places I want to go, I need to go up a long, steep hill or get home by coming up a long hill, which kills the mileage. I get some of it back coming home, but definitely NOT an even swap. I have been tracking the mileage in a spreadsheet, and lifetime we averaging 40mpg, which is probably a 65/35 mix of city and highway driving. However, the last two tanks have been 54 and 40, as the weather has been getting warmer. I would expect to average somewhere around 45 to 50 during the summer months.
* The display is very cool, giving you an instant read on your current mileage, whether you are using the battery, engine, recharging the battery, etc. Most of the car functionality is controlled from the touch-screen, including climate, radio, etc.
* I have modified my driving habits to maximize mileage, including not accelerating quite as much out of the box and various other little tweaks which do not affect how much time it takes me to get somewhere, and would help on all cars, but make that much more of a difference with the Prius.
posted by Alex de Frondeville at 5:19 PM
13 Comments:
Jim's libertarian leanings just happen to plant him securely in the Republican camp at the moment, but even he had some difficulty during the last election. Too bad the Democrats couldn't put forth a more compelling candidate, although I think Kerry could actually have been a great president.
The Prius is classified as a PZEF, or partial zero emission vehicle. So, if your goal is JUST economic, then yes, at the moment it doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, they had to sacrific mpg to get that rating, otherwise the mileage would be more similar to the Honda Insight's 70-80 mpg, for a car twice the size.
Actually, I think the incremental gains in mileage for SUVs would still be less than what could be achieved with the Camry equivalents. Similar to your complaint, I also object to the 6-cylinder Honda Accord hybrid. Hooray, so I can get 35mpg for a high powered car. Like you say, this reinforces the belief that we can have our cake AND eat it too.
So, Mr. Wicks, when you purchase your next car (when might that be), what are you going to get?
I had to turn in my libertarian card because I think making a Muslim prisoner put on an orange jumpsuit does not count as torture, that making old ladies get strip-searched by airport security just as often as groups of 25 year old Arabs, and that a little bit of inconvenience is nothing when national security is at stake.
I asked Alex whether he didn't feel hypocritical free-riding on SUV owners, since he is now paying only half as much as them per mile of road use (not to mention the outrageously punitive luxury taxes on some of these behemoths). And did you see that Oregon, I think it is, is considering a mileage-based road tax because of some of these new high-mileage cars?
I am also strongly against any tax where the majority of the price of the object is tax (cigarettes, for example).
The toughest election decision I ever had to make was in about 1990 or 1992 when they wanted to raise cigarette taxes by 50 cents a pack. I hate cigarette smoke, and the studies are inconclusive as to whether the costs of treating smoking-related illnesses are matched by the decreased old-age benefits paid to these people who generally die right at the end of their working lives.
Finally, this post would not be complete without me saying, 'feh-hay!"
Then why stop at the SUV? Why doesn't everybody buy the H2? I guess another question is why this migration to bigger cars hasn't occurred in Europe? I would say the simple answer is gas prices. The price point here hasn't been reached yet where people will choose the smaller car with better gas mileage. Another key is that everyone is driving small cars in Europe, so there is less fear of being clocked by some behemoth (have you seen the size of small trucks in Europe? They are effectively smaller than the Highlander). In the US, we are unfortunately at the stage where there are too many big cars already, so the gut instinct is to buy a bigger car to protect yourself. It's going to take some set of incentives (hopefully gas prices will be enough, or maybe visible local impact of global warming, or god forbid government intervention), for people to modify their buying preferences.
dude. that's great.
but did you win on league night this week.
luke
15-14 in a barn burner. The SwillMillGrill team has rocketed off to a 3-1 start, walking and zoning it's way to victory over these young buck teams.
I believe one of the flaws in the CAFE standards is that SUVs are not classified as cars, but rather as "light trucks," and thus have lower mpg requirements (20.7 vs. 27.5, which is pretty substantial).
oops, that last post was me
alex$370 v. $100 I always thought trade in value/blue book whatever assumes that the car not be in perfect running order. translation. If you were selling it yourself, an ad stating Runs. $300. Firm would be appropriate.
Jim: I had to turn in my libertarian card because I think making a Muslim prisoner put on an orange jumpsuit does not count as torture,
i agree (as i understood your statement) that it's stupid to waste time searching little old ladies. profiling does in fact, have a place (opinion). However. Torturing a prisoner is actually torture. These soldiers have pled guilty, and are, even if there is no accountability by the higher officials. And Gonzalez' description of the Geneva conventions definitions as 'quaint' is appalling.
I think the USA should have fairly high standards.
(not to mention the outrageously punitive luxury taxes on some of these behemoths).
citation? i'm aware of the (now closed) loophole that actually rewards SUV's, and the fact that they are exempt from the gas guzzler tax, but I could find no specific penalty.
And did you see that Oregon.. ..considering a mileage-based road tax
don't get me started. Salem is Yokelville. they probably decided to cut another week off the schools to make up the difference.
multiple
tree huggers
VW vans seem to be a dying breed, but the image of a tree hugger driving a 15 mpg unheated tin box, burning and leaking oil at a 1 quart per tank rate, strapped to the front seat w/ no protection like a mayan sacrifice... priceless.
a former vw owner.
The fact that SUVs are still classified as light trucks is probably the most bogus of all the things that favor gas hogs. The business loophole that allowed up to $100,000 write off for vehicles greater than 4000 pounds or so (SUV only need apply) was a disgusting corporate giveaway, to both big business AND the carmakers. I'm surprised they didn't explicitly say American large cars only.
In general, I think the CAFE standards are the sort of overmanaged top-down public policy tool that should be avoided. The fact that the standards are so out of whack really shouldn't be surprising.
Throw out the CAFE standards altogether. If we want to influence people to be more fuel efficient (and we should), then we should tax gas at a comparable level to other post-industrial nations. Down the road, we can phase in more sophisticated tools like mileage taxes which are greater for heavy vehicles.
Jim, why do you say "I am also strongly against any tax where the majority of the price of the object is tax"? I don't see anything magical about a 50% breakpoint. Assuming we're going to tax people, we may as well do it in a way that creates incentives we like. The only issue is that a very high tax rate encourages the growth of a black market.
The CAFE standards meant well, but it was more useful in a less selfish age. However, now the only thing that is going to work is a demand as opposed to a supply incentive. They made a nice start with the hybrid tax break, but that was just a side benefit for my purchase. I would have done it regardless. I think that the most effective incentive would be a sliding tax based on the mileage of the vehicle.
In no particular order:
1. I'm looking forward to your posts "Why we used cloth diapers instead of sending 7 000 disposable diapers to the landfills" and "Why the 65 000 lbs of CO2 (my share) from the flights I take each year is less important than the 10 000 lbs of CO2 my car emitted last year". (Source: http://www.vtearthinstitute.org/carbonwksht.html)
2. There is nothing magical about the 50% line of excessive taxation, but it's something I can point at and say that it's clearly excessive. Split the price of something into two piles; one of them is split further into everyone who did anything to bring this product to market (possibly including the person who came up with the idea for the product in the first place), the other goes to the government for, I dunno, being the government. And they deserver the larger pile?
3. If you want to argue that the gas tax really ought to be a user tax, and that you prefer user taxes in general, and that the current gas tax doesn't come close to paying for the transportation costs, well, that's defensible. But no one is arguing that.
4. I would expect (well, not really) that liberals like every one of you except Dix would be offended by the tax break on the hybrid as a gift to the well-off (if not wealthy). Think about the people who buy Prii. They are upper-middle-class if not upper-class, have probably $500K - $1M in net worth, max out on their 401(k)s and IRAs, have nannies and housekeepers, and then think it's a good thing that the government gives them a check to buy a car.
5. Good point about using gallons per mile instead of miles per gallon. Often times, it makes sense to invert the fraction to make comparisons or to take averages.
6. There was a quote in the Sunday Globe that taking away the 200 worst-polluting cars and giving the drivers Prii (cost $5M) would do more for emissions-savings than some $200M (or maybe $500M) mass transportation project being considered. Cute quote, and there are a lot of good talking points all around, but the first thing I thought when I saw that quote was "how many small sedans would you need to purchase?" Hell, you could take the 400 worst, give them 8 year old Accords (cost $2M) that get twice the gas mileage, and accomplish the same thing. I might not be a statistician, but I can smell out a misleading cherry-picked stat a mile away.
Coming to this thread rather late, but a couple things I looked at when I looked at a new car in 2002:
1. You can buy a diesel Jetta that gets between 42 and 50 mpg per tank (my 2002 model does). That's my actual mileage per tank which is mostly non-highway. But I drive fairly conservatively to optimize fuel savings. [yeah I piss a lot of people off coasting when the light is red].
2. At current fuel prices, $2 gas; $2.3 diesel, at 25,000 miles per year, I save about $700 per year over a car that gets 25mpg on gas. The mileage is basically the same for a hybrid.
3. My diesel Jetta GLS (all options except leather) was about $18,000 in 2002. I also looked at the Prius bare bones model which was approx $23,000, and was not impressed with the quality. A Honda accord would have been maybe $19,000 (guess). The problem is that the extra cost for the Prius over the Accord (say $4000-$5000) is not really recovered by the fuel savings when you take everything into account (discount future savings; cost to borrow the extra $5k).
Obviously, the emissions from a hybrid are better than my diesel. But once my warranty expires, I have the option to convert my diesel to bio-diesel which lowers my fuel costs further (to zero?) and turns the whole CO2 argument on its head.
Weigh that against the extra cost, environmental issues with the battery required for a hybrid, and I am not so sure that the hybrid is a better choice.
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