NJ Invitational 2006
In a word, Ouch! But more on that later. So my first tournament of the season was also the occasion for a return to my alma mater, Princeton to see what new buildings have sprung up since my last visit two years ago for the NJ invite 2004. Nothing notable there, so on to the tournament. Also, now that Parinella has posted, I can post this to get to the top of ultimate talk, as he says
I know I mentioned here about beginning training for the upcoming season, but there is really nothing that can truly prepare you for the first tournament other than playing (or having a full-time trainer on hand). Up to that point, you're still laying down the base, and my base is still pretty thin at the moment. The best part was the first round bye. So Friday night I pack up the kids into the car, drop by Jim's house to pick him up, and we drive on down to my parents place in Rye to stay the night. We get there around 9, put the kids down, and proceed to much on some food and do a Calvados sampling. And yes, Calvados leaves you with nasty mouth in the morning. Roll out of bed around 8, quick shower and breakfast, say goodbye to the kids, and then off to Princeton. Naturally, I haven't been there in so long that I take the wrong exit off the Pike (8), then 7, then we go back to 8, and fortunately Jim has a google maps so that we can improvise from exit 8 to get to the fields. After meandering through the backwoods of Windsor, we arrive at the fields around 10:30, plenty of time to get ready for our 11AM and catch the end of an exciting Twisted Metal/Potomac game. Apparently Potomac had taken half 8-2, only to watch TM claw back into the game, eventually getting to double game point pulling. TM gets the turnover, only to give it back and then watch Potomac win the game. TM carried this philosophy into the next game against NY, going down early, only to claw back into the game and then get to double-game point, pulling again. This time they got the disc a few times before finally punching it in for the win.
Fortunately, we were able to warm up with what was assumed to be an inferior opponent compared to some of the teams there (Truck Stop Glory Hole), but naturally we were tested early and often. I think we ended up winning 15-8 or 15-12 or something. It's annoying that pretty much almost all teams are worthy of respect now, and can steal a game away if you aren't paying attention or can't rally the troops.
The next game was against TM/Pike, fresh off their 2nd double game point game of the day. I only semi jokingly refer to them as Pike, as they have picked up Ryan, Danny Clark, and Bailey Russel (also revisiting his alma mater) from Pike. And watching their other games, those guys definitely played a lot of catch together on offense, often resulting in turnovers when they went outside their little clique. There was nothing particularly memorable about this game except maybe Ryan burning us at least 3-4 times on huge upfield cuts for goals. The end result was 15-10 in our favor, pushing TM to the brink for making one of the coveted finals spots on Sunday.
Just a quick word on the weather. As early as Friday morning, there was a chance that the tournament was going to be cancelled due to rain. As I'm sure people are aware, the Northeast has been AWASH in rain for the past week, and at least in northern New England, it has not abated, with NH, MA, and ME declaring states of emergency for various portions of their respective states. I found out from my wife (who stayed in town to enjoy a Mother's Day weekend to herself, complete with spa visit) that it rained non-stop since we left Friday night, and HARD. For Princeton, the forecast was favorable enough that they didn't cancel, and then lo and behold, as we arrived Saturday morning, the cloud cover started to burn off, and by noon, it was mostly blue skies and low 70's, and it stayed that way the rest of the day. People had to go to the bottom of their bags past all the foul-weather gear to find the simple layers that were required in the heat. I was annoyed because as I left Friday, I saw my sunglasses on the counter and didn't bring them because I was SURE they wouldn't be necessary. Stupid me.
Back to the tourney. The next round brought Pike. Pike would appear to be in the middle of a rebuilding year, with a significant pool of players to draw from, as Philly Rage has folded and the two teams are in the midst of combining. Naturally, we started off slowly, giving up two or three immediate breaks to go down big. We eventually got on track, but trying to stop the Pike small ball offense was very annoying, as they played a lot of give and go around the handler positions trying to set up the big strike. They were very good about keeping the disc moving, with even the upfield cutters turning and releasing the disc the minute they received it. We got the game tight at the end, but ended up losing 15-13, creating the immediate review of other games and results to see what we had to do to make the finals. Fun-boy and Jim were particularly involved in this kind of discussion throughout the rest of the day and following day, to the point that we had to create a cone of nerd silence around them.
The last round of the day matched us up with Potomac, who had a pretty small squad considering the distance, rolling out around 11-12 players. Talk about the
true incarnation of the huck and hope offense. We had noticed a number of times during the day peeking at other games that Potomac would put up the disc to a deep cutter who wasn't even moving AND had a defender right with him. It was amusing to watch after awhile, but they did come down with more than their fair share of these hucks. They held true to form in our game with them, putting it up again and again. They came down with some, but we were able to stop them often enough to come away with another 15-10 victory. This game was also a battle of two tired squads, as the surprising sunny, warm, and humid weather, coupled with small squads and early season conditioning lead to tired mistakes on both sides. Looking over at the two other games, it was clear that this was affecting all the teams.
Once the game was over, the all important trek to the Hoagie Haven, a sub shop in Princeton proper was next on the list as the entire team saddled up to drive over there. Naturally, I missed the turnoff from Route 1 and ended up going a different way which ended up being better by avoiding traffic, but still embarrassing. Let me tell, that pizza cheesesteak sub never tasted so good. The other members of the team dribbled in and we promptly took over the sidewalk outside the Haven with 14 players sprawled out in various poses munching on their enormous subs. After that, it was off to the Best Western up Route 1 to shower and watch the Dallas/Spurs game with Doug and Dallas betting another Hoagie Haven sub against Ben and the Spurs.
Next morning, fortified by the late night arrivals of Zip and Paul V. (we now have 16!), we start off with a game against PoNY, who attempt to make it interesting, do at times, but eventually succumb 15-10. I was mostly covered by Dave Colt, another 'old-timer' (but still young) who has had some success covering me in the past. It was good to catch up with him.
This leads to the trap game against Phoenix. Fortunately, despite a feisty showing, we have the opportunity to win yet another game 15-10 until Zip drops an easy pass for a goal and we end up winning 15-11 or 12.
In the finals, after talking about how we need to get up for the game, loud sidelines, etc., we start on D, get the disc off a Pike huck turnover, and promptly turf the first pass, immediately taking the O's psyche out of the game. The O then takes the D's psyche out of the game by getting scored on 3 out of the next 4 points (starting with a Pike goal line turnover by me on a lazy break mark backhand to Ben for a goal after a called pick that Troy (I mean Trey) d's. So we're quickly down 5-1. We battle back, going into half down 8-7 and receiving. Naturally the O quickly gets broken to start the 2nd half and we're down 9-7. There is another break somewhere in there, and then the Ouch! On a high stall count on the far sideline, after Paul V. has mysteriously not seen Jim wide open in the middle of the field to get it off the line, I cut up the line, Paul throws me a nice leading backhand and just before I catch it, my right thigh explodes in pain as Jim's defender poaches off, makes the D, and gives me the worst charley-horse I have ever had. After writhing on the ground in pain for a minute, I barely limp off the field, call foul, have the Pike guy scream at me that he got the disc first and contests, I don't bother to argue that he better make that play without completely taking me out, especially on a poach on my blind side, and naturally we quickly turn it over anyway and they score. I limp over to our sideline, get some ice from the Pike sideline, limp back, sit in my chair, get some Aleve, and barely follow much of the game because of the agony I am in. The D is playing 100% zone, getting D's, giving back a few, but apparently I miss some stuff, because at some point we score, somebody asks the score, and I'm figuring 14-12 Pike, and they say it is 14-14. I am stunned but happy. We trade out to 16-16, and with Pike receiving, go back down in zone. I am up and helping by now (sort of) now that my first 20 minutes of ice is done, and on this final point, Funboy gets a dump d right near the Pike goal line, a few passes later we score, and our only lead of the game is the one that wins the tournament (similar to the Brown 2005 Nationals victory). Woo-hoo! After a very brief circle-up, Jim and I head out for the long drive home, including picking up the kids in Rye, and venturing back into the sodden hell that is New England.
DoG 2006, now 2-0 on tournaments.
Highlights/lowlights:
* Equalling my total turnovers at the 2005 Nationals in the first game (3). Those were definitely NOT the only 3 of the tournament. I definitely had some sloppy throws during the tournament, mostly choice rather than execution.
* Billy Rodriguez strapping on the cleats again for DoG. He is apparently mostly recovered from shoulder surgery to fix a problem that has been ailing his throwing shoulder for the better part of 10-15 years (finally, an excuse for that throwing style). I don't know if he is planning to strap them on full time for the fall, but it was great to have another one of the original DoGs on the field to keep Jim and I company.
* Jim observing that the best outcome of the Dallas/Spurs game would be one team winning a REALLY close game while having one of its players injured. His wish almost came true as Nowitzki almost fried his ankle at the end of the game. Regardless, it was an exciting game with lots of lead changes and stupid plays (missing the free throw on purpose the wrong way at the very end giving San Antonio a chance to win with 2.x seconds left on an inbound play).
* Jim remarking to somebody when I got hurt that he was bummed because he was going to have to drive now. And later on the sideline, after I remarked that I planned to drive to keep my leg moving, he was happy because 1) he had refused to ever drive a hybrid (I brought the Prius), and 2) if he did, he would have to turn in his Republican national committee card (or some membership to that effect). Dusty from Pike overheard and was greatly amused.
* Game highlights? None in particular. More discussion between Jim and I on the ride back about where this ranked in tourney wins, top 15, bottom 15, or other. Tournament amenities (or lack thereof), etc. Conclusion? Nothing official.
* I just noticed over here that Jim concluded that he had the ability to still be playing. At the beginning of the TM game, we had one sequence after an early turnover where I was covering some guy from Amherst. Naturally they called him in the play, and he 1) got open underneath for a 15 yard gainer, then 2) got open deep for the goal. And pretty easily. I walked off the field very unsure about whether I was ready to play for another season. By the end of the weekend, my second wind had kicked in, and my defense and positioning improved and I felt a little better about the season, knowing that I had a lot of conditioning, speed work, and, yes, some weight loss in front of me to help out. Also, Jim failed to note in his clam/zone busting comments, that I threw him every one of the breaking throws. It became amusing after awhile.
* I second Jim's conclusion that the tryouts were far more helpful than prior early season tryouts and had more potential. The tryout pool is promising to be very deep and very good this year. This might be the first year that we actually don't take one or more people that could actually help the team because of roster size.
* On the drive back, talking with Jim realizing how much institutional memory the two of us have of the last 21 years of ultimate, both at a high level and very much at the minutiae level.
I know I mentioned here about beginning training for the upcoming season, but there is really nothing that can truly prepare you for the first tournament other than playing (or having a full-time trainer on hand). Up to that point, you're still laying down the base, and my base is still pretty thin at the moment. The best part was the first round bye. So Friday night I pack up the kids into the car, drop by Jim's house to pick him up, and we drive on down to my parents place in Rye to stay the night. We get there around 9, put the kids down, and proceed to much on some food and do a Calvados sampling. And yes, Calvados leaves you with nasty mouth in the morning. Roll out of bed around 8, quick shower and breakfast, say goodbye to the kids, and then off to Princeton. Naturally, I haven't been there in so long that I take the wrong exit off the Pike (8), then 7, then we go back to 8, and fortunately Jim has a google maps so that we can improvise from exit 8 to get to the fields. After meandering through the backwoods of Windsor, we arrive at the fields around 10:30, plenty of time to get ready for our 11AM and catch the end of an exciting Twisted Metal/Potomac game. Apparently Potomac had taken half 8-2, only to watch TM claw back into the game, eventually getting to double game point pulling. TM gets the turnover, only to give it back and then watch Potomac win the game. TM carried this philosophy into the next game against NY, going down early, only to claw back into the game and then get to double-game point, pulling again. This time they got the disc a few times before finally punching it in for the win.
Fortunately, we were able to warm up with what was assumed to be an inferior opponent compared to some of the teams there (Truck Stop Glory Hole), but naturally we were tested early and often. I think we ended up winning 15-8 or 15-12 or something. It's annoying that pretty much almost all teams are worthy of respect now, and can steal a game away if you aren't paying attention or can't rally the troops.
The next game was against TM/Pike, fresh off their 2nd double game point game of the day. I only semi jokingly refer to them as Pike, as they have picked up Ryan, Danny Clark, and Bailey Russel (also revisiting his alma mater) from Pike. And watching their other games, those guys definitely played a lot of catch together on offense, often resulting in turnovers when they went outside their little clique. There was nothing particularly memorable about this game except maybe Ryan burning us at least 3-4 times on huge upfield cuts for goals. The end result was 15-10 in our favor, pushing TM to the brink for making one of the coveted finals spots on Sunday.
Just a quick word on the weather. As early as Friday morning, there was a chance that the tournament was going to be cancelled due to rain. As I'm sure people are aware, the Northeast has been AWASH in rain for the past week, and at least in northern New England, it has not abated, with NH, MA, and ME declaring states of emergency for various portions of their respective states. I found out from my wife (who stayed in town to enjoy a Mother's Day weekend to herself, complete with spa visit) that it rained non-stop since we left Friday night, and HARD. For Princeton, the forecast was favorable enough that they didn't cancel, and then lo and behold, as we arrived Saturday morning, the cloud cover started to burn off, and by noon, it was mostly blue skies and low 70's, and it stayed that way the rest of the day. People had to go to the bottom of their bags past all the foul-weather gear to find the simple layers that were required in the heat. I was annoyed because as I left Friday, I saw my sunglasses on the counter and didn't bring them because I was SURE they wouldn't be necessary. Stupid me.
Back to the tourney. The next round brought Pike. Pike would appear to be in the middle of a rebuilding year, with a significant pool of players to draw from, as Philly Rage has folded and the two teams are in the midst of combining. Naturally, we started off slowly, giving up two or three immediate breaks to go down big. We eventually got on track, but trying to stop the Pike small ball offense was very annoying, as they played a lot of give and go around the handler positions trying to set up the big strike. They were very good about keeping the disc moving, with even the upfield cutters turning and releasing the disc the minute they received it. We got the game tight at the end, but ended up losing 15-13, creating the immediate review of other games and results to see what we had to do to make the finals. Fun-boy and Jim were particularly involved in this kind of discussion throughout the rest of the day and following day, to the point that we had to create a cone of nerd silence around them.
The last round of the day matched us up with Potomac, who had a pretty small squad considering the distance, rolling out around 11-12 players. Talk about the
true incarnation of the huck and hope offense. We had noticed a number of times during the day peeking at other games that Potomac would put up the disc to a deep cutter who wasn't even moving AND had a defender right with him. It was amusing to watch after awhile, but they did come down with more than their fair share of these hucks. They held true to form in our game with them, putting it up again and again. They came down with some, but we were able to stop them often enough to come away with another 15-10 victory. This game was also a battle of two tired squads, as the surprising sunny, warm, and humid weather, coupled with small squads and early season conditioning lead to tired mistakes on both sides. Looking over at the two other games, it was clear that this was affecting all the teams.
Once the game was over, the all important trek to the Hoagie Haven, a sub shop in Princeton proper was next on the list as the entire team saddled up to drive over there. Naturally, I missed the turnoff from Route 1 and ended up going a different way which ended up being better by avoiding traffic, but still embarrassing. Let me tell, that pizza cheesesteak sub never tasted so good. The other members of the team dribbled in and we promptly took over the sidewalk outside the Haven with 14 players sprawled out in various poses munching on their enormous subs. After that, it was off to the Best Western up Route 1 to shower and watch the Dallas/Spurs game with Doug and Dallas betting another Hoagie Haven sub against Ben and the Spurs.
Next morning, fortified by the late night arrivals of Zip and Paul V. (we now have 16!), we start off with a game against PoNY, who attempt to make it interesting, do at times, but eventually succumb 15-10. I was mostly covered by Dave Colt, another 'old-timer' (but still young) who has had some success covering me in the past. It was good to catch up with him.
This leads to the trap game against Phoenix. Fortunately, despite a feisty showing, we have the opportunity to win yet another game 15-10 until Zip drops an easy pass for a goal and we end up winning 15-11 or 12.
In the finals, after talking about how we need to get up for the game, loud sidelines, etc., we start on D, get the disc off a Pike huck turnover, and promptly turf the first pass, immediately taking the O's psyche out of the game. The O then takes the D's psyche out of the game by getting scored on 3 out of the next 4 points (starting with a Pike goal line turnover by me on a lazy break mark backhand to Ben for a goal after a called pick that Troy (I mean Trey) d's. So we're quickly down 5-1. We battle back, going into half down 8-7 and receiving. Naturally the O quickly gets broken to start the 2nd half and we're down 9-7. There is another break somewhere in there, and then the Ouch! On a high stall count on the far sideline, after Paul V. has mysteriously not seen Jim wide open in the middle of the field to get it off the line, I cut up the line, Paul throws me a nice leading backhand and just before I catch it, my right thigh explodes in pain as Jim's defender poaches off, makes the D, and gives me the worst charley-horse I have ever had. After writhing on the ground in pain for a minute, I barely limp off the field, call foul, have the Pike guy scream at me that he got the disc first and contests, I don't bother to argue that he better make that play without completely taking me out, especially on a poach on my blind side, and naturally we quickly turn it over anyway and they score. I limp over to our sideline, get some ice from the Pike sideline, limp back, sit in my chair, get some Aleve, and barely follow much of the game because of the agony I am in. The D is playing 100% zone, getting D's, giving back a few, but apparently I miss some stuff, because at some point we score, somebody asks the score, and I'm figuring 14-12 Pike, and they say it is 14-14. I am stunned but happy. We trade out to 16-16, and with Pike receiving, go back down in zone. I am up and helping by now (sort of) now that my first 20 minutes of ice is done, and on this final point, Funboy gets a dump d right near the Pike goal line, a few passes later we score, and our only lead of the game is the one that wins the tournament (similar to the Brown 2005 Nationals victory). Woo-hoo! After a very brief circle-up, Jim and I head out for the long drive home, including picking up the kids in Rye, and venturing back into the sodden hell that is New England.
DoG 2006, now 2-0 on tournaments.
Highlights/lowlights:
* Equalling my total turnovers at the 2005 Nationals in the first game (3). Those were definitely NOT the only 3 of the tournament. I definitely had some sloppy throws during the tournament, mostly choice rather than execution.
* Billy Rodriguez strapping on the cleats again for DoG. He is apparently mostly recovered from shoulder surgery to fix a problem that has been ailing his throwing shoulder for the better part of 10-15 years (finally, an excuse for that throwing style). I don't know if he is planning to strap them on full time for the fall, but it was great to have another one of the original DoGs on the field to keep Jim and I company.
* Jim observing that the best outcome of the Dallas/Spurs game would be one team winning a REALLY close game while having one of its players injured. His wish almost came true as Nowitzki almost fried his ankle at the end of the game. Regardless, it was an exciting game with lots of lead changes and stupid plays (missing the free throw on purpose the wrong way at the very end giving San Antonio a chance to win with 2.x seconds left on an inbound play).
* Jim remarking to somebody when I got hurt that he was bummed because he was going to have to drive now. And later on the sideline, after I remarked that I planned to drive to keep my leg moving, he was happy because 1) he had refused to ever drive a hybrid (I brought the Prius), and 2) if he did, he would have to turn in his Republican national committee card (or some membership to that effect). Dusty from Pike overheard and was greatly amused.
* Game highlights? None in particular. More discussion between Jim and I on the ride back about where this ranked in tourney wins, top 15, bottom 15, or other. Tournament amenities (or lack thereof), etc. Conclusion? Nothing official.
* I just noticed over here that Jim concluded that he had the ability to still be playing. At the beginning of the TM game, we had one sequence after an early turnover where I was covering some guy from Amherst. Naturally they called him in the play, and he 1) got open underneath for a 15 yard gainer, then 2) got open deep for the goal. And pretty easily. I walked off the field very unsure about whether I was ready to play for another season. By the end of the weekend, my second wind had kicked in, and my defense and positioning improved and I felt a little better about the season, knowing that I had a lot of conditioning, speed work, and, yes, some weight loss in front of me to help out. Also, Jim failed to note in his clam/zone busting comments, that I threw him every one of the breaking throws. It became amusing after awhile.
* I second Jim's conclusion that the tryouts were far more helpful than prior early season tryouts and had more potential. The tryout pool is promising to be very deep and very good this year. This might be the first year that we actually don't take one or more people that could actually help the team because of roster size.
* On the drive back, talking with Jim realizing how much institutional memory the two of us have of the last 21 years of ultimate, both at a high level and very much at the minutiae level.
posted by Alex de Frondeville at 1:45 PM
29 Comments:
I'm tempted to write my own entry "What Jim Really Said" just to get back at the top of ultimatetalk, especially now that GCooke has snuck in, but I'd also push myself down.
The end of the Spurs/Mavs game was awesome from an uninterested party's viewpoint, watching it with a couple partisans and many other hecklers. I didn't really care who won, I just wanted to see a tragedy, and what with Ginobili bouncing it off his leg followed by the rules screwup that even I knew when it happened. The next morning when watching the Pike/TM game, I voiced a similar desire and felt a little squeamish when someone asked directly in front of a TM parent whether that included the injury.
I don't really have an RNC card, but I did say "Great, now I have to drive home" within seconds of Alex's injury. Reminded me of the time back in 1998 when we had 5 on 5 at practice one night and Mooney and Cork get into a tiff and Cork decides to up and leave, and poor rookie Doug says, "Great, there goes my ride."
At this age, there are multiple winds in a tournament. Any time there is a period of relative personal inactivity that lasts more than 20 minutes is an opportunity to completely stiffen. 20 minutes is a pretty short time, and could just be a defensive run or a couple hell points or even a normal rotation with a quick O point and one or two points of not playing O. I had an interlude like this in our last pool play game, where after stiffening I played a couple really ineffective points, then decided it would be most effective for everyone on the team for me to sit out until the next game.
And tying together the comments about institutional memory and the zonebusting, I said after one of those points, "This reminds me of that one pass you threw me against Furious at ECC back in ought-one. That was cool."
We eventually got on track, but trying to stop the Pike small ball offense was very annoying, as they played a lot of give and go around the handler positions trying to set up the big strike.
Annoying? Sounds like fun to me.
random viewer,
About the foul that resulted in your being maimed, I am not gonna disagree with your call as I didnt even really see the play but from what I saw afterward it seemed like you waited a very long time to call the foul. I know you were in pain and if that is why fine, but what do you think about the idea of the longer you wait the worse a call it seems?
anonymous: Probably makes sense, but I don't really care. I was way too busy wallowing in my pain and wondering if he had done a Cam Neely on me to worry about what call, if any, I was going to make. It's not like I had to rush to make a call because the game wasn't going to restart until I got off the field.
Also, I hate the response to a foul call "I got the disc first." That is completely irrelevant to the play. Granted, it makes it look worse when somebody calls that kind of foul, but the rules completely disregard when the 'fouler' makes contact. That doesn't even enter into the rules discussion. The point is being able to make the play without clocking the player. Same thing on a comeback cut. If the defender lays out, reaches around the offensive player, hits the disc first with no contact to the player, then takes him out, that is a foul, pure and simple. The defender needs to be even more rigorous on a blindside poach, because it can result (and did) in a dangerous play, which is also a foul.
Real quick again, then ill probably never post again, slow day at work.
I actually was gonna question the call for that reason and will therefore ask whether:
(a) you think it is a good rule? It seems like in basketball (correct me if I am wrong) you can sometimes get a way with a big block if you do the blocking first and the contacting second. In football, again Im pretty sure, it is also legal. Sure football is a contact sport but basketball is more "noncontact" like ulitmate. I dont want to endanger anyone but I dont mind (my body and ego would) getting blown up if the guy gets the d first, especially on a hospital pass up line throw where a crappy throw and maybe your teammates bringing a poacher into the mix by 1. an errant front of the stack cut 2. clearing out on an incut to close to the hanlders are the main reason for the foul.
(b) you think it is bad for the advancement of ultimate because you could make the case that it makes ultimate less exciting if you have to worry about what is gonna happen not before or during an attempt for a d, but after. The play you were involved in was unfortunate but exciting and for better or for worse fans like that stuff.
At first blush I was somewhat intrigued by your statements, but after further thought, I realized that I am staunchly for the rule as currently written, or at least the philosophy behind it, which is to discourage these kinds of dangerous plays. Keep in mind that ultimate is theoretically a 'non-contact' sport as you say.
For me the biggest problem with encouraging this kind of play is that it promotes 'going for it' on the off-chance that you can hopefully get the disc first. If you don't, that's ok because you won't contest the foul, even though you sent the player to the hospital. If you got the D, great! No foul, and the player goes to the hospital and you're now on offense. I'm exaggerating to make a point, but I think the last thing we want to do is encourage dangerous play.
Picture another situation, where your team has the 7 foot bruiser. Any huck, he is going to just throw his body into the play because he knows he is going to touch the disc first, and doesn't worry about the collateral damage after the fact.
I'm not explaining myself very well, but I think it would be terrible idea to encourage these kind of plays, and removing that rule would do that.
The play that Alex Nord made on Doug Moore in the semis at Nationals last year is a perfect example of how to make that D the right way.
Also, it wasn't a hospital pass up the sideline. The poacher made a great play, but it wasn't like the throw was thrown in the middle of the field. It was directly up the sideline and I had to chase it for a few yards, but the poacher had to come over quite a distance to make the play. And my leg is still killing me.
It seems you're old enough that the games and teams run together for you-- Current Pike doesn't actually have anyone named Ryan. That guy moved up to Metal Country. As for who it was that actually went deep-- I don't seem to remember watching anyone do it, so it must have been me.
Regarding the injury, it is very difficult for defensive players to not make that bid. Every team that I've played against works their defenders into a fury and unleashes them on the opponent. The turnovers they generate can be so valuable that it results in very difficult split-second judgement calls. Those same dangerous plays are reinforced as good by the "impartial" sideline who just like to see exciting plays. I do not have a solution and I am unsure what, exactly, my feelings are on that play. I'm still working that out. Suffice to say, it's good to hear you're just 'hurt' and not 'injured.'
As for you throwing to JP on the first throw of every zone that we played... well... No one seemed to like the idea of actually playing defense on Jim (The word was that he kept trying to "go to the open space" and "get open"), so we figured we'd let you have your fun, ****-Eating-Zone-Grin and all.
dusty: Ouch, you're right. I have since amended the post. I was referring to the TM game where Ryan roached us a number of times deep. In the Pike game, the guy who roached us the most was reasonably short, and I think wearing a tan baseball cap. Although you did a couple of times also, more in the pool play game.
And I'm not sure whether I'm hurt or injured yet. It'll take a few days before I can actually make that determination, but the thought of walking normally much less running right now makes my leg buckle (which it already has a few times today).
I understand the defensive mentality and I'm not sure what the solution is either, but what anonymous is suggesting would encourage even more of the same.
alex,
you may want to make sure you don't have compartment syndrome. not sure how bad your injury is, but that stuff ain't good. harriford gave my sister in law compartment syndrome of a fair layout a few years back. anyway, just sharin' some info with you.
dar.
anonymous: just did a quick google on that, and it looks pretty nasty. I'm hoping the symptoms appear pretty quickly... At this point, I'm still REALLY sore, but nothing like the numbness. The thing that irrationally bothers me a little is that there is no external sign of bruising/blood yet. Guess it has a lot of fat to work through...
I have calls into Dr. Billy Rodriguez and Russ Robar, our official team sports massage therapist for suggestions.
is a "cone of nerd silence"! a hat one wears? does the cone grow with more guinness?
Strangely enough, it is completely invisible, but the result is that it renders the conversation of the people inside it completely unintelligible. The effects can be enhanced through the use of Guinness, but it is not required for the base usage.
I have actually put someone in the hospital due to a poach on an up the line pass. Broke his arm and was out for 3 mos due to the location of the break.
So, speaking from experience, it is easy to say you have to make that bid while on D. But the fact of the matter is that you have a duty to make a clean play and if you know that it will result in contact (I wan't to say excessive contact, because I don't mind some) then you don't have a clean play.
No one is getting paid to do this, and if someone is seriously injured due to your stupidity (and don't forget you could just as easy get a knee in the head)of placing not only yourself, but a fellow player in danger...then you can always say you got to the disc first. Until we get paid to do this...people have lives outside of ultimate that you should respect. It is ONLY a frisbee.
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Good point. Somebody also mentioned comparisons to basketball and football. If I had been wearing the gear that football players wear, then it wouldn't be the same issue. And in basketball, people are not typically doing full-on sprints as they are in ultimate when this contact can occur (although the 'ground' is harder...).
- Brown had the lead at 14-13 as well, immediately following the legendary four-times-tipped Zip catch. The next two points were one posession scores.
- Every serious injury I've seen on an ultimate field, except for freak ACL tears, has involved someone trying to get a poach D on an up-the-line cut. The offensive player is totally blind to the play; it is the defense's responsity to avoid a dangerous collision, period.
Oddly enough, I got nailed in the leg making this cut on Sunday as well. Fortunately it was a woman trying (unsuccessfully) to get the D, so she lacked the requisite momentum to take me out for more than a point.
- The Spurs/Mavs series puts every other series going to shame, in terms of depth of adjustments and counter-adjustments. Great TV.
- Alex, I think the first time I ever spoke to you was at Tune-up in the year when Cork was playing with E-Pig. Cork has a drop as I'm walking by, and I said, "wow, good thing he's not on your team". I'm sure you didn't know who I was, and I'm not sure you knew that I knew that he used to play with you, but you seemed to get a good chuckle out of it.
In regards to the "I got the disc first" argument, I think the correct position is a little more nuanced than Alex makes it out to be. Certainly, what he describes is a foul (virtually every head-on collision is a foul), but more contact can be tolerated if the defender gets to the disc before the contact occurs.
To pick a particular situation, if two players are laying out for a disc, and the defender gets the disc, and then contacts the offensive player, that's probably not a foul. Whereas if the contact occured before either player touched the disc, it may well be a foul. Or at least that's what they teach in observer training camp.
Alex,
to what do you attribute DoG's run (and offensive efficiency) after you left the game? great sideline help, perhaps?
sam th: I agree with the nuanced view. If there is contact where both players are going in the same direction, like on a comeback cut, then some incidental contact is OK. However, even in that case, if the defender takes out the offensive player after making the D (as in the D player can't make that play without taking out the O player), then it should be a foul.
anonymous: I believe it was because I now had the time and luxury to fully focus my telekinetic powers to disrupt the flight of the disc when Pike was on O. And I'm not on the D squad...
Personally, I don't mind the contact as long as the defender and I are coming from the same location. I have broken my shoulder from a poacher "t-boning" me from the side causing me to land on my shoulder. I consider this a dangerous play on the defender, even though I saw him at the last second.
What am I as a receiver supposed to do? Stop running straight toward the disc that is coming straight toward me as it was an in-cut? Or continue with my attempt to catch the disc? If I stop, can I call dangerous play even though I made no attempt due to impending injury to myself?
Since it basically eleminated me from the fall series for the year, I decided to become a little passive and call dangerous play to avoid this scenario even though I have yet to follow through with it. After all, as Cash said, it is only Frisbee and my boss hates when I am out of work due to injuries.
JT
Rule XVI.I.4 states:
"Dangerous, aggressive behavior, or reckless disregard for the safety of fellow players or harmful endangerment is always a
foul. This rule is not superseded by any other rule."
It was probably the case here that the defender guaranteed that there would be significant contact by doing what he did, and his defense consisted completely of "I got the disc first." There was another poach collision in one of our other games, but the contact wasn't as severe because the defender pulled up a little and the contact may have been from misreading exactly what the cutter was doing (there was an uncontested stall on the throw so even if there was reckless endangerment it may still have been a turnover). And I had the opportuntiy to take a receiver out on another blind poach, but went around the guy at the expense of making it less likely I'd get the disc, and no one (including me, most importantly) got hurt.
So the thrower shouldn't make a break the line throw up a sideline at high stall count because that might happen? Seems sort of restrictive. Hey, I'm not complaining because I got hurt, but it is the burden of the defender to make that play cleanly, ESPECIALLY when it was a blind poach. I'm just glad it was my quad and not my knee (so far). If that wasn't dangerous behavior or reckless disregard given the outcome, then what is. It's not like I all of a sudden changed my trajectory at the last second. Again, I argue this at an academic level, not as the aggrieved person.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?collid=23549014209.57705505809.1147805573221&mode=fromshare&conn_speed=1&collid_list=23549014209.57705505809.1147805573221:&img_size=5&trans_delay=3000&trans_enabled=true&conn_speed=1&mode=fromshare&Upost_signin_override_collid=23549014209.57705505809
That's the play.
Now if the disc goes up and the defender gets there first coming from the side, knocks it away, and then the offensive player is actually coming INTO the defensive player who is sideways and in front of the receiver, this is still a foul and dangerous play? If anything, while the defender maybe airborne, isnt the offender the one technically initiating contact? This isn't a T-bone play if the defender got in front.
Unfortunately that link didn't work for me, so I can't see it. Can you try again? If what you're saying is true, and I don't doubt it, I think it is still incumbent on the defender based on the Rule Jim posted, which SUPERCEDES any other rule. There is clearly no way I can know that somebody is there, while the defender is WELL aware of my positioning and trajectory and is the one that is effectively initiating contact, even though they might get there first.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLandingSignin.jsp?Uc=13quebgu.bq7j3cnu&Uy=-oa36wu&Upost_signin=Slideshow.jsp%3Fmode%3Dfromshare&Ux=0
First picture in the set.
Assuming my quad recovers, I don't necessarily fault the player too much (well, a little bit), but those who were there will note I didn't scream at the guy saying foul, what the hell was he doing, etc. Once I dragged myself off the field, they asked me if there was a call, I had to think it through, I said foul, he said he got the disc first, I said I don't care, so it was contested and went back to the thrower. I believe they scored the point anyway... Interestingly enough, I wonder if I would have been madder if I had been less stunned/out of it.
However, the situation here is somewhat different than the one you describe. That must have been tough to call in that situation. Here, again, it was directly up the line on a force middle, and while he led me a little, it wasn't a tremendous amount. The poacher had to make up some distance to get to the disc, and had a clear view of my trajectory the whole time. That is the difference between your example and this one.
i think a lot of these interpretations have been very O-centric.
i was on the field for this play, but my back was to it until the very end, so i can't judge the merits of this specific call, but i think in general both the D and O players have an equal right to get to the space where the disc is going.
the question of a foul arises, i think, when the D player has to lay out to get to that space first.
think about it this way - if the defender gets to the disc standing up, knocks it away, and then half a second later there's a collision because he had to rush in from the opposite direction as the receiver, is that a foul?
does it change if the defender lays out instead of getting there on his feet?
in the first instance, i think it's a clean play and neither player has an obligation to back off - they're both going for the disc, and unfortunately, as someone said before, collisions happen in sports.
many are unintentional and the result of two clean, hard, opposing efforts.
i agree that it's a foul if the defender goes *through* the receiver who clearly has position, but when they're both headed to the same spot from opposite directions, it's hard to fault either player.
i think it's more questionable when the defender has to lay out into the space to get there first, but still not clear cut in my mind if that's a foul either.
JT, Pike - 1
The discussion from this side is probably too O-centric (because D players can't write), you're right. But it's not a symmetrical situation, because of the blindness (and resulting danger; a pick is a violation because of danger, not any sense of fair play). Even if the O player looks upfield while chasing this pass, he still will not see the D player coming in from his back side (a blind spot), whereas the D player has a clear view. There is another passage in the Fouls section of the rules that is not binding here but might offer some insight: "When the disc is not in the air, players may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving opponent when time, distance, and line of sight [emphasis added] are taken into account. Contact resulting from a player taking an unavoidable position is a foul on the blocking player."
The D player can still make a bid here that will make contact much less likely while making the D just a little less likely, and that is the ethical play.
(Otoh, sometimes even if you make the ethical play, the O might pull up and cite dangerous play, even though you weren't going to hit him.)
since it is every players respobsibility to avoid contact, it would seem like the O and D players should be on equal footing. however, in this case, the O player couldn't avoid contact because he didn't know any contact was coming. the D player, therefore, had the sole responsibility to avoid contact in this case. he didn't so it's a foul.
all these other cases where people are laying out toward each other or running into each other are much different and harder to call because both players failed to avoid contact, and both are entitled to a play on the disc. In this case, however, while both players are entitled to make a play on the disc, the responsibility for avoiding contact falls pretty squarely only on the defense.
So what if the defender yells something like "Here I come!!!" as he runs towards the disc? If he gets the disc before contact in this case, can the O player call foul?
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